Divorce, abortion and all that crap

If the basic arguments in favour of divorce and abortion are so similar – and the profile of the pro-divorce/pro-choice person so analogous – then why do repeated surveys clearly indicate that the overwhelming majority of pro-divorce people are also pro-life?

Paul Vincenti seems to have gone into overdrive this week with his efforts to convince us all that a direct link exists between divorce and abortion. I suppose we ought to look on the bright side: evidently, the anti-divorce lobby is running out of serious arguments... if indeed it ever had any.

But anyway. Commenting under a letter by Jacqueline Calleja in the Times yesterday, Vincenti (CEO of Gift of Life, for those who actually have a life and never knew) nailed his 99 theses to the Cathedral door. At a glance I took them for rhyming couplets (some of them do, in fact, rhyme). But reason? Logic? Anything even remotely resembling the product of a single coherent thought process at work? Hmmm...

OK, let’s take them all one by one:

Divorce argument... it is a person's private choice...

Abortion argument,...it is a women's [sic] private choice.

Not sure where Paul Vincenti got the divorce part of that equation, but it is evident that he doesn’t know or care about the genuine distress suffered by people in failed marriages.  Private choice? More like necessity, in many cases.  And besides, even if we accepted the basic premise, it just doesn’t work out in practice. I assume that Vincenti knows it takes two people to make a marriage, and not just one. So depending on the legislation concerned, a private individual will certainly have the right to sue for divorce... but whether (and on what terms) that divorce is granted, will invariably depend on the other half of the equation, too.

Having said that, I concede that the abortion part is true. That’s what being ‘pro-choice’ means, in point of fact. But again, the oversimplification serves only to blunt the main thrust of the argument. Being pro-choice means acknowledging the reality that abortion, while undesirable, is sometimes necessary . It doesn’t mean you want it to happen; it just means you would rather the option existed in a safe form, because otherwise the inevitable reality is that women will end up butchering themselves. Most pro-choice people I know will also argue in favour of artificial contraception for much the same reason (though in the case of contraception, there are other arguments, too). The bottom line being that some of us recognise unwanted pregnancy as a problem, and not all of us share the belief that a newly conceived (and pre-sentient) zygote deserves the same protection at law as a sentient human being. I am fully aware this argument won’t go down too well with people who reason differently, but that, I would have thought, is the whole point of having different opinions.

 
Divorce argument... nobody should force people to stay married.

Abortion argument... nobody should force a women [sic] to keep her baby
This marks the beginning of a tediously repetitive and singularly dim-witted approach to both issues. But first, someone really ought to inform Paul Vincenti that in English, an adult female human being is referred to as a ‘woman’, which becomes ‘women’ only in the plural form. ( After all, if you’re going to talk about women’s issues, it sort of helps to know what a woman actually is.)

But on to the argument. Excuse me, but... where’s the connection? Nobody should force children to fight wars, either...  as they unfortunately do in several parts of the world. Does Paul Vincenti see a correlation between child soldiers and abortion, too? And that’s just the beginning of the absurdity. Nobody should force people to vote for parties they don’t support. Nobody should force people to espouse (or leave) their religion of choice. Nobody should force people to undergo pain or distress. Nobody should force a vegetarian to eat meat, or a meat-eater to turn vegetarian. I could go on forever, but what’s the point? The simple fact that an argument is applicable in two separate instances doesn’t mean that the two instances are themselves linked. It’s an ancient fallacy, and I believe the technical term is “false dichotomy”. And you will notice that it is also the main thrust in ALL Vincenti’s arguments, bar none.

Divorce argument, ...only religious zealots are against divorce.
Abortion argument,...pro-life people are religious zealots

Both entirely untrue. There are many people who are against divorce for purely personal reasons that have nothing to do with religion. They may be worried about personal security in the event that they are dumped by their spouses. They may be vaguely concerned with a general drift towards lawlessness... which would certainly make them conservative, but the concern itself is not motivated by religion. As for the second bit, well, it only goes to show how ignorant some people can be about the arguments of others. You see, unlike Paul Vincenti, some of us are able to comprehend and even appreciate arguments with which we disagree. I know several pro-life people who are not zealots at all. Some of them aren’t even religious.  Any pro-choice argument along the lines that being ‘pro-life’ is the somehow  preserve of religion is not just laughably flawed: it is a crude and brutish sweeping statement, and quite frankly it has no place whatsoever in any serious discussion. I need hardly add the argument cuts both ways.

 
Divorce argument,... the freedom to choose to have a divorce is a civil right.
Abortion argument.... abortion is a woman's civil right to choose.

Ah! That’s more like it. Probably the only semi-decent analogy on offer. Divorce is indeed recognised as a civil right in large part of the world. The second part is however a little vague. The right to ‘determine one own’s destiny and make one’s own choices in life’ is a human (not civil) right, and it is by no means restricted to women. That is nonetheless the basic right appealed to in most pro-choice arguments. Evidently Paul Vincenti reasons differently, but hey! The right to hold different opinions is a human right, too. (Vincenti ought to bear that in mind, before seeking to criminalise an entire opinion by means of a Constitutional amendment, like he did in 2005...)


Divorce argument,...divorce is a human right.
Abortion argument... abortion is a human right.

Utter bollocks on both counts. Neither divorce nor abortion is listed anywhere as a human right. Has Paul Vincenti actually read the Universal Declaration, I wonder? If not, he can do so here (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml)

Divorce argument... divorce is available abroad so we should legalize it .
Abortion argument.... abortion is available in nearby Sicily so why do we discriminate against Maltese

How odd. I seem to remember the exact same argument being used by the Nationalists when talking about colour TV and Barilla pasta in the 1980s. You could extend it to virtually any argument under the sun. I suggest Paul Vincenti listen to the Cranberries (nice Catholic band from Ireland) once in a while. Everybody else is doing it, so why can’t we?

Divorce is already here....
Abortion is already happening in Malta

Both true. What surprises me is that the same Paul Vincenti who points this out goes on to say; “There is none so blind as they who will not see”. Try telling that former Justice Minister Tonio Borg, who stated on live TV that he thought abortion ‘didn’t happen in Malta’. But in any case: I have never heard anyone argue that abortion should be legalised on those grounds. Indeed I have never heard anyone (other than John Zammit, who – no offence or anything – hardly counts) argue that abortion should be legalised in Malta at all.

Divorce…. Only conservative fundamentalists are against the right to divorce
Abortion… Ultra conservative

Huh? Come again? Not at all sure what he meant by that. Perhaps he fell asleep at his keyboard while trying to finish the second part (and who can blame him? Squaring the circle is tiring work, you know) but in any case, it is increasingly clear that there is little point in trying to see the logic in a patently illogical stand.

Well, that’s the wrap insofar as Vincenti’s arguments go. Now I have a question for the man himself. Do you read your own statistics, Paul? I’m referring to the survey you commissioned from Informa Consultants, oh, around two weeks ago, as I recall. The results were given considerable prominence in the press. I think you’ll find that this survey (I won't comment on the methodology, by the way, but... boy oh boy...) came to the conclusion that 87% are against the legalisation of abortion in Malta. Of the remaining 13%, only 4% can be described as ‘pro-choice’ (according to your own survey, please note) while 9% believe abortion should be allowed ‘in some cases’.

Now compare this to surveys on the subject of divorce (I refer to those conducted by MaltaToday and Illum, and also by Xarabank, The Times and others). For the past year, they have consistently shown an increasing majority in favour of divorce. MaltaToday, for instance, fixes it at 59%. Others placed it even higher.

Hence my question for you, Paul. There is, after all, a tiny mathematical difference between 59 and 4.  If, as you claim, there is such a clear correlation between divorce and abortion... how do you account for the gulf of difference in public opinion on the two issues? If the basic arguments in favour of divorce and abortion are so similar – and the profile of the pro-divorce/pro-choice person so analogous – then why do repeated surveys clearly indicate that the overwhelming majority of pro-divorce people are also pro-life?

Please note it’s not a rhetorical question, Paul. I’d like an answer, please.

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For God's sake wake up - Both divorce and abortion are available to Maltese citizens. That is, if you can afford to travel. Divorce - Leave the Island for 6 months, apply for it and in a few weeks you get a divorce. The Maltese authorities have to respect it and you can freely remarry. To have an abortion - Google a clinic in the UK or Sicily, make an appointment, buy an air or catamaran ticket. Those that cannot afford it end up going to a butcher for a backstreet abortion which might lead to complications and are afraid to go and seek medical attention. So what's the fuss?
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Atheists don't claim they know everything. Believers many times do. They believe they know God (shame that each believer seems to have a different version of God when asked for details), and claim that is all there is to know that really matters.
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Good luck with contemplating the universe then. I hope you will at least one day consider that you don't know everything. Life is indeed a great mystery. I choose to live the mystery and all I know is that i am calmer, more at peace and an all round less irritated,frustrated person. PS, yes, I had aMr man T-shirt. Loved it.
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carmel duca
Dear Mr Man - and incidentally there was once a cartoon series by that name - the simple fact that 'you say so' doesn't make for a very compelling argument. I have no doubt that the Resurrection is important to you personally, because without it your life would clearly be meaningless. But that's your problem, and quite frankly, your personal need to fill your own life with artificial meaning does not concern me in the slightest. I find the truth about our provenance and existence on earth - or at least, what little we know about it - to be infinitely more interesting and rewarding than the lazy fantasies of people who are convinced they will live forever, without having a clue of why or how. Oh, and please note that this is not sarcasm, just plain old honesty.
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You are living a fantasy mate. I once lived like you. I thought all I needed was , my brains, logic and opinions. I soon woke up and realized what a load of rubbish i talked. Yep,I admit, I was a bloody fool and pretty screwed up. I believed in all that rationalism, liberalism stuff. I still do in a way except I now know what freedom really is. It is having the strength to do what is right and not to jump at my own shadow because I was living in fear of being wrong or contradicted. Freedom is to know that I am saved by Jesus and have nothing to prove to anyone anymore. Least of all people who take shots at me for believing in Jesus. So if you feel tempted to have a go at some typical sarcastic remark, allow me to say beforehand, no hard feelings, I forgive you even if you feel you don’t need my forgiveness.
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Mr Vassallo, I think you're missing a very important difference here. Alexander the puff did not rise from the dead. Whether you like it or not, the man they called Jesus rose from the dead. He rose for you as well. I think that the saying 'putting you pearls before pigs' goes well in this situation. You are entitled to disagree but then again, you are entitled to belive that gravity does not exists as well. Goodl uck with the future. It looks rather dull and depressing for you if you think it all ends at your death.
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carmel duca
Michael001: Alexander the Great is still mentioned today also. Does this mean he is still alive?
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Albert Zammit
Believing in abortion is not just any opinion. Abortion is just that - abortion. Don't come telling me that you were once a 'thingy'. And by the way, I really think Paul Vincenti sucks! So, watch out what you're going to thrown at me, please.
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Albert Zammit
Raphael ... nissugerilek li ma titqazzizx hafna u ma tghollix lilek innifsek immensament. Jien minix xi zelanti taf, imma ... nemmen. Kristu miet u ghadu jissemma sa' llum. Inti tmut, u minuta wara, jinsiek kulhadd hlief id-dud!
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carmel duca
Hate to be the bearer of bad new, Kramer, but... Jesus has been dead for 2,000 years. I think it's time you got over it. Don't you?
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Jesus loves you Raphael. You are very angry and hurt. You have a deep need to lash out at what you do not understand. If you would just pray, a short prayer, maybe you will one day experience the wonderful joy of being at peace with no need to prove anything to anyone. I am praying for you.
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Raphael you seem to be suffering from victimisation syndrome. You act as though you are the martyr who is so misunderstood. You ignore the fact that a baby dies in abortion. You obvioulsy don't think life begins at fertilisation. this allows you to consider the abomination that is abortion as just a simple personal choice. You are a wasted talent Raphael.
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carmel duca
Just flicked through the comments after a short stint abroad. Some people are simply astonishing. Mersey Micallef complains she has been 'attacked' on this blog. This is the same Mersey Micallef who called James Debono and I (among others) "disgusting' for the grave crime of disagreeing with her views. I mean, honestly. As for Joe South, well, it is evident that we disagree on the 'murder' part. To you abortion may well be murder, but hey! Quick newsflash from the North: you are not the only person to actually inhabit this planet. In fact, most other parts of the world are fairly evenly divided on the issue. It's only Malta - a country where children are shamelessly brainwashed since infancy - that a tiny, tiny minority has to tolerate being insulted and abused on a regular basis, for holding a perfectly ordinary opinion shared by millions of perfectly ordinary people throughout the world.
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@ Tilly Trotter: Perhaps it is because the pro-divorce "crusade" (if it is even correct to use that term) does exactly the opposite of seeking to impose.
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How come that the only crusade tolerated, supported and lauded by the local media gurus is the pro-divorce one?
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I wish the maltese people will stand up on their feet and fight for their rights- like the rest of the world do- yes ,I think and agrees that the maltese people needs to go to the streets - protesting in a civil manner for their rights- not just inside their houses -bla bla bla- people must unite for their rights, not making everything political- thats what politicians want - pfftt- its is for the good of the people- i say this if its not me, it will be my son or my daughter, or thier future kids who needs divorce law and other human rights, like gay marriages etc.. I say this to all - cause these things can happen to all- i say this with responsability. unfortunatle we have a PN goverment which I always used to support- but now I opned my eyes- cause if one is a fanatic don't see well- The thing that they work hand to hand with the church that is disgusting- mixing religions with politics- we should be areal secular state....
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and how can you say people who asks for divorce will asks for abortion too? are you crazy or what? so to you ,people who are or wants divorced are like that -making and wanting abortions??? you see ,it was you who attacked others in this page- intentionally or unintentionally-
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@Marsey. No I don't feel any bigger. i have not attacked you - I have said things how they are and how things can be -I said that to all- that is to me personally and to everybody in the world - what goes around comes around -I am not in favour of abortion- But i will never vote a no for it- who am I to say no for such? it was you who attacked us here- i just answered back with truth and reality. *** Submitted on Tue, 11/02/2010 - 13:11. I am a woman also, nails, hair heels and all. I don't think sejay is corrcet and a baby is not mine to dispose of. I feel divorce will bring on abortion because people who get divorced will ask for abortion as another liberty later on. I thin it is people like in this paper whop will promote it. The ones who say it is not the same thing. This is why I will never vote for divorce. I am separated but I choose not to live with another man. I have two lovely children and I love them with all my heart. I will not mislead them into thinking it is OK to be with a man who is not their father. I have been called names because of this. I say, sticks and stone to you Marsey Micallef ***
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Alfred Galea
CJ, better for one man to die........ I notice you didn't say anything about the 40,000,000 murders but just tried to be another comedian in the long list of comedians.....keep it up CJ.....
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Well done Silvio. I hope you feel lke a bigger men know you have attacked me I made a big mistake to write in thios place. It gives people the chance to attack others shamelssly. I will spread the word how offensive this is and tell my friends how terrible the idea of these people is for divorce and abortion. I forgive you for your attacks. And now I will not stay to read what you or anyone else has to say afterwriting this gfhax I am feeling sik with the opinions against baby and families of people.
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oh and if you don't want to read the reality it's your right - go to the church or buy a bible or read it if you have - so you wil live in a world of your own full of illusions- who knows maybe you will open your eyes- have happened that. what we say today, tomorrow will be or may be different - good luck for your life marsey, don't throw away yourself -you are still are a human being with one life- all the best altough different opinions- you are hurted by your seperation I am sure from what i can read. all will pass..but yes marsey noone can tell the others what to do with their life .Like noone can tell you ,what to do with your life... good luck...
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@marsey micallef:) that is your opinion which maybe is working good for you:) divorce will bring abortion is that what you feel?:) marsey all they do is just get a ticket and go to even sicily - you don't even know how many maltese goes do that ....(and noone will ever know that thye were pregnant) anyways I cannot or even will not dare to say another woman what to do with her own life etc..divorce ? dear dear. if a man or a woman want to leave their husband/wife they will just do it- even your husband can do that anytime:) i am not saying that he is but just saying that he can- or I say this to all - marriage is nice ,yes I agree . But only if there is Love - if love have finished from a side than the marriage is finished- without love there is nothing -and also remember this marsey, what goes around comes around- and face reality. These things , have been are being done and will continue to be- sooner or later we all wil be touched by seperation divorce etc.. if not us, our children marsey....or their children, Don't be illusioned that it cannot happen to you.all the people will still be in need the greatest things of all -That is LOVE !
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Shame on you Joanna, you have fallen into the trap of thinking that abortion is a woman's right. Divorce is also wrong. I am a case in point. I am separated but will not put my kids through a divorce. This is wrong. It tells them that this is OK o do later for themselves . This blog is very sad. I will leave it as it only shows me that people like you want both the divorce and then the abortion. Tal Biza. I will stop buying this paper on Sundays as well. I am shocked at James Debono's blog on the embryo. Vera a shame on you Mr Debono and Raphael. You would not be here if your mother's did not give birth to you.
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Norman Buckle
Joe South commented thus: "CJ, The Eclipse of Reason was a one-of, to prevent the murder of the innocents, 40,000,000 in the US alone since Roe vs Wade."     JayEss, that is the most patheticK retort, even coming from you! (The big K included for emphasis -- you know what a tick is!)     A "one-of[f]"? Surely, you jest!     Stage a murder, and actually do it, to demonstrate the crime of murder! Moronic!
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Marsey, you may be a woman but you do not speak for all of us. This country is living in the middle ages. We need divorce now. Abortion is another matter. We can fight for this liberty later but to confuse the two is very typical of the conservatives who want to limit us all. I hope you undertsand that this is also a woman's right we fight for. Men can be great abusers. If I get into a mess, either in marriage or with an unwanted pregnancy, I want the right to choose what is best for me.
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I did not sortion i am pro-killing. I am pro choice like divorce and abortion. They should be allowed as choices. I am not in favor of abortion personally but for the option to have a divorce or abortion choices. They should be allowed, divorce first and than abortion choices.
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Alfred Galea
Raphael, the point is that the Pro-Choice do not give them a choice, they just tell them to murder their unborn. They should, like Matt says, come out and say it, "we're pro-killing"....maybe you should take a female partner with you and visit one of these "pro-killing" centres and you'd find out first hand what their "choice" is. CJ, The Eclipse of Reason was a one-of, to prevent the murder of the innocents, 40,000,000 in the US alone since Roe vs Wade.
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Why do som people afraid to say what dey mean. Let us be honest. Divorce and abortion (in a few cases only) are necessary and they must be legal so we can then have real choices. Raphael, we must be clear and not confuse people more you see. SeaJay, I think a woman has more ability to talk than us men about losing a baby. If it is a baby to Mersey then it is her choice.
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Norman Buckle
@Ms. Marsey Micallef The pro-choice proponents, such as myself, argue for the right of the woman's sovereignty over her persona. What she decides to do, or as in your own case, not do, with her body (and life), is strictly her own choice ... and no one else's; not even another woman's.     Your own choice is as valid as that of Ms. Zammit. You are both fully qualified to make your own individual choice. The only difference between the two of you is that, you would interfere with Ms. Zammit's choice to the point of depriving her of her right to her choice.     As to the nature of the unborn, whether it's a zygote, embryo, or fully formed, it has been debated from time immemorial, by legions of philosophers, scientists, politicians, and sadly, charlatans.     What seems to escape most opinion-makers is that, as a general rule (rules DO have exceptions), a woman seeking abortion, does not do it for the fun of it. And they seek it out of necessity and in the very early stages.     It is ironic that, the very people who are so vociferously anti-abortion, are the same ones who do not hesitate to produce the movie, The Eclipse of Reason (1987) -- a sickening documentary showing the actual abortion of a late-term unborn ... in order to show the horrors of abortion! Imagine ... killing someone to prove the obscenity of murder!     We are but mere mortals and can never have a perfect solution to every possible aberration in life. The best we can hope for is to offer justice to all in equal measure. Some women cannot, for numerous earthly reasons, undertake to carry their (unwanted/unplanned) pregnancy ... their decision is as valid as of those, like yourself, who choose to carry the pregnancy, assuming of course, that Mother Nature -- aboritionist-in-chief -- is willing to cooperate!     @Kenneth Cassar I agree with you about generalizing ... it was simply one argument in favour of a hypothetical proposal/law. The counter-arguments are endless :)
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carmel duca
Personally I would not choose 'your ass', Joe South. But then, that's the advantage of having a choice to begin with.
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Alfred Galea
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Pro-life+Anti-Abortion+Video%3a+Development+of+the+Unborn+Baby&docid=300763709737&mid=2C0DD3EC1945DF99F4652C0DD3EC1945DF99F465&FORM=LKVR1#
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Alfred Galea
Pro-choice?? What choice?? They don't give anybody a choice, their aim is to tell the woman to go and kill whatever is growing in there. They don't tell them that there are other agencies who can help them with their pregnancy, physically, mentally or financially. Pro Choice my ass.
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carmel duca
Meanwhile, you're not that bad yourself when it comes to insulting others, you know. I just read your comments under James Debono's blog. I could learn a thing or two from you when it comes to being offensive....
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carmel duca
Marsey, you may be unaware - but I doubt it - that attacking others is a tactic used consistently and to great effect by the Gift of Life foundation. Paul Vincenti has in fact placed himself directly in the front line. He has maliciously and dishonestly accused others (including myself) of campaigning to introduce abortion to Malta. He has 'named and shamed' others for fialing to share his obsession with foetuses, and he has also tried to emotionally blackmail political parties (successfully, I might add) to back his twisted Cosntitutional amendment proposal . If he can't handle a bit of sarcasm, then perhaps he should have resisted the impulse to insult others. Meanwhile I notice that he still hasn't answered the very simple question i put to him above. Why do you think that is?
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The way some of you attack others is disgusting. I work in a bank, can you imagine what would hapen i we did not respect our clients? And yet we seem to forget that when we disagree with each others, we must continue to do it respectfully. I mean this to Raphael who attacks others sarcastic ways. We are all gifted in different ways, we must not use our gifts to try and hurt others we do not like, this he does often when he writes about other people. I think it makes his message get blocked as he seems to get emotional about people like Mr Vincent
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I am a woman also, nails, hair heels and all. I don't think sejay is corrcet and a baby is not mine to dispose of. I feel divorce will bring on abortion because people who get divorced will ask for abortion as another liberty later on. I thin it is people like in this paper whop will promote it. The ones who say it is not the same thing. This is why I will never vote for divorce. I am separated but I choose not to live with another man. I have two lovely children and I love them with all my heart. I will not mislead them into thinking it is OK to be with a man who is not their father. I have been called names because of this. I say, sticks and stone to you
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Alfred Galea
Mr Vassallo, live birth abortion means that the baby is killed/murdered/exterminated AFTER it is born, or as Joanna said, after it is "developed"....don't YOU think that that is MURDER?? And what about partial birth abortion? Isn't that murder too?? It is a sad sad world when we use abortion as a means of birth control. And it is even sadder when the ones for killing babies are the ones who have themselves been born. Probably the same people who are against executing murderers. Go figure.
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@ Seajay: I would like to correct you on just one thing. Unwanted pregnancies are not necessarily the result of a man's irresponsibility. After all, condoms are not THAT transparent, and I would guess a woman would know that the man is not wearing a condom, not to mention women who actually choose not to use any contraception. We shouldn't generalise.
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Norman Buckle
Finally, a fully qualified person -- a female -- commenting!     Well said, Ms. Zammit!     For all the macho-males out there ... How would you like it if government were to pass a law which will make every male undergo a medical procedure, known as a "reversible vasectomy", at the time of reaching puberty?     This law will be based on these undeniable facts: 1) Unwanted pregnancies are the result of male's irresponsibility. 2) The cost of an unwanted pregnancy is borne by the female -- the guy promises the moon, takes her for the ride, and then sticks her with the fare! How fair is that? 3) It will make it easier for the community to control its growth -- 2 kids per dad, and a permanent vasectomy on the birth of the second child. 4) Nothing in the Bible prohibits such a procedure.     How about it, Martin Borg: If a referndum were held on this question, how would you vote?     Careful with your answer! You do not want to ░ ░ ░ ░ up your stand against abortion!     (For those who are not familiar with Canadian-English, "░ ░ ░ ░" means, "to screw up, right royally, your previous argument". (Perhaps, MaltaToday might consider conducting a survey on this question, eh!)
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Abortion is not murder. It is not a person until when it is developed
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I am 23.I hope that is I get married I will be able to get out of a bad marriage. Divorce should be legalised today!! Abortion is my business also. It is my body. I would vote for any party that is not afraid to give us these two rights. How can we live in 2010 and still be like a medaevel country. These anti divorce people make me sick. Leave us have choices. We are able to choose what is good for us. We DO NOT need fundamentalists to tell us what we can and cannot do.
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carmel duca
But to answer your question: NO. Murder is a legal concept, and as such it is defined by the criminal code, not by people's sentimental fantasies. Live birth abortion would still fall under the category of terminated pregnancy, and it is not classed by Maltese law as murder.
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carmel duca
What about a woman who smokes during pregnancy? Is that attempted murder?
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Alfred Galea
Mr. Vassallo, what about live-birth abortion?? Is that murder or not??
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carmel duca
Abortion is not murder. If it was, the maximum penalty would be life, instead of three years in prison. I suggets you take a look at the criminal code before repeating the rubbish you were taught at school. Meanwhile there is also a very good reason why the unborn has no way of expressing itself. Before 24 weeks it has no consciousness, no ability to feel pain, no ability to feel anything at all (more details here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jun/25/human-foetus-no-pain-24-weeks) So kindly note that your sentimentalism is at best misplaced. People like you, Mr Borg, constantly distort the argument by impugning complex sentiments to non-sentient beings. This leads to absurdity, of the kind that equates the morning after pill with murder.
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Sorry did not intend to address you as Vassallo but as Mr. Vassallo
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To say that abortion is a woman' s personnal decision is totally wrong, there is a third party involved, namely the fetus or baby call it what you will.Vassallo I'm sure if I ask you if you want to die you would say no, but the unborn has no way of expressing itself. No Abortion is simply murder and it is wrong to equate it with divorce those who do are the ones who see that their anti divorce arguments don't hold water.
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@wshnexin15, could not have put it better.
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I don't agree with abortion, only in some cases like if she cannot cope becaus she is too young or is been raped. Its her rite if she doese not want a baby you know. Divorce is a human right however. Mr Vincenti needs to keep out of the discourse if he is happily married. Divorce is for people who need it.
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who must care what Mr.Vincenti etc says? they are just people like all of us trying to manipulate with their disgusting religion beliefs. It's all the PN fault and you know why? Cause they work hand and hand with the church .,they all have been like that since old times one help the other- who does not know this is a stupid ,brainwashed manipulated person- this bla bla bla in Malta when all have these things like Divorce- it's the fault of certain people who make them like their gods. some even lick foots to get a favour from them - Disgusting- I think some of the people needs help from others to open thier eyes....
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carmel duca
"I don't think Mr Vincenti makes these claims himself,he is stating what pro abortion people say" Correction: he is stating what he THINKS pro-choice people say, but he is wrong.
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I don't think they are related either but you should not take such a personal interest in the guy. It makes it seem like you think he has a point you have to rubbish everythink he says. I must admit though there is a similarity in the argumenys being used to justify divorce and abortion. Mr Vincent did not claim abortion and divorce are human rights, he said that pro abortionists say abortion is a human right. i thnk divorce is a human right.
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Raph what'syour point? I don't think Mr Vincenti makes these claims himself,he is stating what pro abortion people say